church security team

[Neighbor]

I did a search and nothing came up about church security teams - sorry if this has already been addressed.
I am located in Texas. Some leaders in our church have suggested looking into forming a security team. I would like to know how concealed carry individuals need to approach this. Another forum I occasionally frequent had quite a thread running on this subject and although opinions were all over, there was more than one poster that was adamant that it is illegal for a concealed carry person to be armed and part of any team team that even "smelled" like security at the same time under current Texas law.
I routinely carry and although some may suspect, I haven't told anyone. Even if it is OK to be a part of a team, I'll have to think it through.

[siggaltx]

Every church I've ever been a member of (I'm also in Texas) has had a group of guys and girls who carry in church and the leadership team was aware and some had semi-organized "security teams" even if they weren't openly discussing it during "official" church functions. At one church I belonged to in Austin, the pastor did mention during a service that we could all take comfort in knowing that there were men in the church who were armed and ready to defend us if need be. I don't think it's illegal, just a church government choice.

[MIO]

Most use off duty officers to avoid certain issues. One issue that comes up often is does the church assume liability for you? Also some states require "organized security" to be certified by the state under cleet, post or whatever the state you are in calls it.
I would love to hear from the lawyers on this subject because it effects a lot more than most will admit.

[TexasLawShield]

Neighbor,

This issue can get hugely complicated. So long as you, as a CHL holder, are simply volunteering your time to protect the church, you are not considered “security” under Texas law and are not required to obtain a security license. If you are paid, or represent yourself as a security officer, you are probably required to be licensed. If you don’t mind calling our business line, we can get a little more information from you and give you clear advice on your specific situation.

[switch]

One notoriously anti-gun DA in a liberal area made noises about a mega-church that openly recruited CHL's for a 'security team'.

I would be careful about joining a 'security team' - especially if it was comprised of ONLY CHL's and LEO's.

There is nothing that says you cannot carry while you are an usher, greeter, checking kids into/out of the nursery, or even patrolling the parking lot - after all, some of your elderly members might need help to/from their cars.

I think a 'security team' is a little more iffy, but if it included NON-licensed individuals, doing essentially the same job.....

[5GenTXn]

REGARDING CHURCH SECURITY VS. SAFETY - Caution! Call it what it is, do it right, and get legal. To do otherwise is un-Christian and could land everybody that participated in the conspiracy in prison and/or subject to fines and civil litigation. If you are interested in the subject of legal church security in the great Republic of Texas then educate yourself before adopting the work-arounds posted in this forum.

*A prosecuting attorney will focus on the history of organization and function of a 'safety' team looking for security functions and purpose.
*In Texas the Private Security industry is regulated by the Texas Department of Public Safety - Private Security Bureau.
*A volunteer security patrol made up of church members would generally require licensing under the provisions of Section 1702.108 or 1702.222, regardless of whether any compensation is received as a result of the activities. Source: http://http://dps.texas.gov/RSD/PSB/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm
*The Concealed Handgun license (CHL) does not allow the licensee to be a part of a team tasked with preserving the peace.
*A church that depends on congregants, some of which possess CHLs, to miraculously execute a justifiable response to a situation requiring the use of force or deadly force to resolve, is wide open to both civil litigation and criminal prosecution on many levels.
*Texas DPS Private Security Opinion Summaries http://http://dps.texas.gov/RSD/PSB/Laws/psb_opin_sum.htm#
*Violation of chapter 1702 occupational code 1st offense is a Class A misdemeanor punishable of not more than 1 year in a county jail and/or a fine of not more than$4,000. Second and subsequent violations are a considered a felony of the 3rd degree. For range of punishments see: http://http://blog.austindefense.com/2006/10/articles/third-degree-felony-range-of-punishment-texas-penal-code/
*Section 1702.381: CIVIL PENALTY http://http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/OC/10/1702/P/1702.381
*Unauthorized employment – Employer pays http://http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/txstatutes/OC/10/1702/P/1702.386

*For solutions that conform to Texas statutes regarding private security consult Gatekeepers http://http://www.nocssm.org POC is Chuck Chadwick, President. For the record I am not associated in any way with the business end of Gatekeepers and will neither expect nor accept compensation for suggesting them.

[longbowelk]

After reading this through it appears to me that a Church could not form a security team without a lot of headache.  I certainly would not be a part of the security team especially if you would be unarmed.  The whole purpose of church security is  to have one or more armed people to be able to stop the criminal that wants to kill and maim innocent people.  That would require deadly force with a firearm.  So what we have is another gun free zone whereby the law abiding citizen is a sitting duck due to the laws.  I am in Texas. I do carry in Church.  No one knows so I can't be a part of a conspiracy with other CHL's. According to what I have been told by my CHL instructor, since no 30.06 sign is posted, and no one of authority has asked me to leave, then I am within my rights to carry.  If my statements are incorrect please advise.  Finally, Laws do not apply to criminals until after the crime.

[switch]

Like I said, there is one anti-gun DA in a liberal area that made some noises.

There are some companies that specialize in training church members to be Private Investigators/Security guards.  They charge the church to hold the license for these guards (last I checked, they were charging about $20 per volunteer hour worked ).  They make a lot of noise about it being illegal to carry under your CHL and perform security.  All that is true.

It is NOT illegal to carry and be an usher or greeter.  Now, if the pastor decided ALL ushers had to have CHL's I might start wondering exactly what my duties really were.

Actually, you can probably carry as an usher/greeter w/o a CHL under the general exception of at home or at work.

It's a lot cheaper to hire TLS (which you should have already) than to set up a security company and get trained.

[longbowelk]

I don't plan on joining any Security team. I am my own one man security team for myself and my family which would obviously help others in attendance.

[MIO]

Whatever you decide make sure you train together and if your rolling "alone" make sure any other LMIs (Like Minded Individuals) might know the course of action and who is who. Teams or multiples get real complicated real quick.
It gets even more so with scared runners who will hit anything in their path. Consider practicing the Blauet spear techniques. http://[url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dZqwwonj-ig]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dZqwwonj-ig
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 Also consider angles, over penetration routes etc. IE: if you fire at the typical chest level that is also level with heads seated in the pew so a knee might be taken to change the trajectory and if it misses or over penetrates then it goes into the roof or high wall rather than the nursery.
There's a lot more than just having a gun and attitude to the dynamics especially in confined crowds. I have also prayed on the matter.
Friendly Fire Isn't

[Neighbor]

Several of the posts after the TLS attorneys answer seem to confirm what they said - "this is hugly complicated".

 In the area I live I doubt there will be a liberal anyone trying to nitpic a security team but I do appreciate having the knowledge of various opinions on what others think would be acceptable. At times I have to wonder if some of the most vocal folks against volunteer teams might be benefitted if every church decided to hire security.

Having said this, Longbowelk is probably closest to my current thinking - I'll continue to concealed carry where possible and if "fate" puts me in a situation I will deal with it to the best of my ability. I imagine by the time any "organized" resistance happens (legal security team or otherwise) the problem will be over one way or other.

Thanks to TLS for their information.

[CongoHarry]

Question For TLS:  Confused in Texas...or maybe just dyslexic.  As listed in http://http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.46.htm: Texas Penal Code Title 10, Chapter 46 (Weapons).  In Section 46.03 ("Places Weapons are Prohibited") churches are NOT listed among places where weapons are prohibited.  However, under Section 46.035 ("Unlawful Carrying of Handgun by License Holder") - line 6 specifically identifies "Churches, synagogues, or other established places of worship" as places I cannot as a CHL holder carry my gun.  What gives?  Typo/conflict in the penal code, or I am dyslexic?

[longbowelk]

CongoHarry:  You are right about line 6 stating "Churches" listed as against the law to carry. However, if you'll read on down further under (i) Subsections (b)(4). (b)(5), (b)(6) and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06. Per my instructor someone in authority has to know you are carrying and must give you notice per 30.06 rules, law whatever that you need to leave the premises, etc. I hope this clears this up.

[CongoHarry]

CongoHarry:  You are right about line 6 stating "Churches" listed as against the law to carry. However, if you'll read on down further under (i) Subsections (b)(4). (b)(5), (b)(6) and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06. Per my instructor someone in authority has to know you are carrying and must give you notice per 30.06 rules, law whatever that you need to leave the premises, etc. I hope this clears this up.

Thank you!  Was beginning to think I needed a remedial reading class.

[TexasLawShield]

longbowelk,

That is correct. Thank you for your reply.