Author Topic: Any experience with Church Security Teams?  (Read 6360 times)

Neighbor

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Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« on: July 27, 2015, 09:27:41 PM »
I already posted in "Ask the Lawyers" about the legal aspects of this in Texas. I wonder if anyone here has been in a church with a security team and if concealed carry license holders are involved or not? Armed or not?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

CongoHarry

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2015, 02:10:48 PM »
My Pastor is protected during Sunday worship services by an armed body guard, who accompanies him everywhere he goes.  The entire (mega) church and surrounding facilities are likewise protected.  All in plain clothes, with two-way radios and earpieces.  A very slight bulge detectable at the 4 O'Clock position on the waistband.  I've had some professional experience with that prior to retirement, and can say given their general comportment and demeanor, they are without a doubt professional law enforcement officers.  The term is "command presence." It shows.  They have it. Most members of the congregation on any given Sunday are equally armed.  Add to that, the Pastor is an avid shooting sports enthusiast and CHL holder.  So are his kids.  It's a shame it has come to this, but the threats received from Islamic militants, and Gay/Lesbian/Transgender and Pro-Abortion advocates have been deemed credible.  Slap leather in my church, and we'll send you to meet your maker.  No waiting.  Consider us the express lane.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Slumlord1

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 06:49:09 PM »
In Texas a Church can have a Safety Team but not a Security Team unless the members are all licensed security guards.   You can get into trouble calling your team security if they are not licensed.   If you are on a Safety Team you can not carry a weapon, even if you are not on duty a particular week.    It does not matter if you have a CCL or not.    If you are not on a Safety Team and have a CCL then it is OK to carry a weapon.    If you doubt this call your local DPS office.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

MIO

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 06:17:03 PM »
I'd like to throw out a thought to those considering it. Become a Reserve Officer
Get training, use your skills and practice your sheepdog
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Neighbor

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2015, 09:12:25 PM »
Slumlord1, you make it sound "cut and dried" but based on both the lawyer's answer on this forum and some similiar discussions on another forum, there seem to be considerable differences in opinion about security/safety/usher/parking teams and their roles and what might or might not be considered legal if someone really wanted to push it. From my research it appears that this is quite a gray area in Texas law that has many strong opinions. At this point in time I think my best approach is continue my own team of 1 concealed carry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Church Security Guy

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 09:50:04 PM »
Neighbor,

I've been a member of a Church Security Team for the last 5 yrs or so.  The law is fairly clear and the TLS lawyer was as well when he/she stated "If you are paid, or represent yourself as a security officer, you are probably required to be licensed."  You can call yourself a Safety Team vs Security Team but you can't pass the integrity test if you have people walking around with concealed handguns, patrolling or stationed at specific locations and times, comm systems, and responsibilities (whether written or not).  The letter and intent of the law was for individuals who perform "security" related tasks to be trained, licensed, insured and qualified to do those tasks with a full understanding of the consequences for not doing them correctly.

Enforcement has been non-existent.  I try to follow it pretty closely and I have not read of a single prosecution.  I believe (opinion here) that there are at least a couple of reasons.  Who wants to prosecute a Church is one.  Another is a standard scenario.  Bad guy gets up during the sermon and approaches the platform, produces a weapon, and tries to murder the pastor.  Armed congregant sees what is happening and draws his handgun and shoots the bad guy.  This scenario looks exactly the same whether the bad guy was shot by an astute parishioner who is legally carrying his sidearm with a CHL or a trained, licensed, insured, qualified Security Officer performing his duty.  In addition, the DPS is the only entity that enforces Private Security laws so the responding LEOs would most likely never ask the question.

What happens after the shooting is where the difference is.  Who pays for the lawyers?  Will the Church's liability policy cover an overt criminal act.  Will the Church be found complicit?  What protections are afforded the shooter as a private citizen?  What if he missed and someone else is injured, whose insurance pays for that?

As you may have gathered, our Church partners with a Security Company to provide security services for the Church, Staff and Congregants.  The Church provides the labor and recruits the team members and has a contract with the Security Company.  It provides the most cost effective, competent Church Security Program they can afford.  But it is not free and it takes a while to get into place.  The Security Operators themselves go through 10 training cycles a year that include:  Advanced 1st Aid, Combat Medicine, Dealing with difficult parents, Handling, Emergency Action Planning, Spotting Abused Children, Spotting Child Abusers, and 3 shooting qualifications.

It has worked out well for our Church.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 07:34:33 AM by Church Security Guy »

MIO

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 03:50:38 PM »
Church Security with Col. Grossman Webinar 11/12/15 And my commentaries added:

This is/was a Christian oriented broadcast done by and for believers.
The stats are as follows:
Since 99 there have been 600 violent deaths in church settings, 2012 had 76 and this year we are already on pace to break that with 74. And 80% resulted in deadly force. There is a dramatic increase in sex crimes against members and children from people coming in off the street. There is a 91% criminal success rate with only 13 incidents actually being stopped by the police. 2 out of 3 incidents happened outside the building so get part of the security team in the parking lot.
One of the issues is not having people who have been there a while doing. Someone shows up and a week later is running the nursery or leading the children on an outing etc. Proven men and women must lead so things do not happen. I know folks get excited by fresh blood and willingness.
On the security teams. Have people of all ages and abilities on the team so you have not only a response team but eyes, ears, someone to call 911, someone to immediately start praying etc.
The teams range greatly from church to church from having nothing to one church having armor wearing rifle team on standby because of the high profile members with multiple handgun teams placed in the congregation.
 The teams MUST be qualified and train together. Having a gun is not enough. I'm a huge supporter as a trainer of this thinking. If you can't make the head shot under stress then you can't make the cut on the response section. If you are not willing to charge rather than take a position then you can't make the cut on the response section. Physical fitness is important.
Of course some idiot from Oklahoma had an issue with women being on the team. Get over it was what was nicely put out. Figure where they best fit in and use them. I'm not as nice as they are. Your either qualified or your not. Gender has nothing to do with it because you can't tell me Rhonda Rousey isn't qualified to be a personal escort or that Julie Golob couldn't be a gunner. If your that insecure and egoistical then I don't want you on my team.
 Make sure you have advanced medical to include tourniquets available because proper response will save lives. 
Understand that this is not a house for saints but a building with sinners and often times we may know the congregation from our professions.
 
Luke 22-36 "If you don't have a sword take your clothes and sell some and buy one".
IMO this means not only a handgun but a combat rifle and armor. The only way to survive serious threats is to be a greater one but again this is just my opinion.
There are 3 categories in the world. Wolf, Sheep and Sheepdog. The Wolf spot is taken so that leaves you where?
 
The webinar is archived for viewing at http://livestream.com/accounts/14289416/events/4481130
It's an hour long.
 


Neighbor

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 04:40:51 PM »
Thanks "Church Security Guy" and "Mio"

KSMike

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 03:35:03 PM »
MIO,

Great answer! I just attended a church security team training seminar hosted by Jimmie Meeks and COL Dave Grossman. GREAT TRAINING! First line of defense is having a capable, legally armed security team member in the parking lot on patrol! Identify and meet the potential threat at the earliest opportunity! This will help save lives, as well as prevent people from getting hurt. The team needs to stay trained, stay ready, and know what to do, when to do it!

switch

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Re: Any experience with Church Security Teams?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 08:15:13 AM »
FYI, they changed the law.  Volunteer, non-paid security at churches do NOT have to be licensed.