Author Topic: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.  (Read 22405 times)

Allison Scott Muzik

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30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« on: January 01, 2016, 01:00:39 PM »
So yesterday my Apartment Complex posted a 30.07 Sign. ( NOT with a 30.06 ) so this is basically meaning that I have to conceal my handgun ?? Or is this saying that I am not allowed on the property, how does this work with the castle doc. ???

ceejmo

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2016, 02:04:12 PM »
Where did they post the sign? On the office entrance or somewhere else?

30.07 is only for open carry. If there's no 30.06 then concealed carry is o.k.

Allison Scott Muzik

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2016, 08:23:27 PM »
it is on the Entrance Gates on both entry and exit.

ceejmo

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2016, 09:52:12 PM »
 (“premises” generally means a building or a portion of a building, but not including any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area)

I don't think they can prohibit you from carrying on the sidewalks based on the above.

Might need to post this in the "Ask the lawyers" section for clarification

Neighbor

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2016, 09:56:55 PM »
Until you get clarification in the Ask the Lawyer section, it would appear that they have no problem with concealed carry since they didn't post 30.06 so just keep it concealed. I would suggest NOT asking they folks at your apartment complex for clarification.

BK

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2016, 09:58:10 AM »
I am not an attorney and none of the following is legal advice, but I do have extensive personal and tenant advocacy experience with several apartment complexes in Texas, all of which apartment complexes have been members of the Texas Apartment Association (TAA).

One of the first things one should do is give a thorough reading to his lease agreement to see what it says about carrying firearms within the apartment complex. He may have already signed away his rights to open carry anywhere within the boundaries of the apartment complex.

If the apartment complex is a TAA member, then they are most likely using TAA’s Apartment Lease Contract form. The last version I have is a 2013 version, and one of the activities listed under paragraph “20. PROHIBITED CONDUCT” is “... displaying or possessing a gun, knife, or other weapon in the common area in a way that may alarm others ...” Notice that it says “may alarm others,” not “alarms others.” And even "possessing" a gun in a way that "may" alarm others, even if the gun is totally concealed, is prohibited. It is wide open for broad application by the landlord. Neighbor lady to apartment complex manager:  "We have learned that our neighbor, Mr. Gunowner, carries a gun concealed on his person as he walks around the complex. Our children are frightened and alarmed by that. They are afraid to go outside and play in the playground for fear of Mr. Gunowner." Manager to neighbor lady:  "I never liked Mr. Gunowner, anyway. I'll put a stop to it."

I haven’t seen TAA’s latest Apartment Lease Contract form, but I would expect that it has been revised since the 2013 version to cover open carry, most likely to prohibit it. You can bet that they will go to whatever extreme necessary to protect their member apartment complex owners.

My own experience with TAA member complexes has been that no matter what the law or the provisions of the lease agreement or a tenant’s legal rights either statutory or contractual, if a tenant finds himself in a position of having to stand up for his rights and buck the owners and management in order to enforce his rights, then he can expect retaliation in the form of non-renewal of his lease agreement at the end of the then-current primary or extended term. And while such retaliation is or may be contrary to law, my own experience has been that they won’t hesitate to commit it.

My experience has also been that apartment complex managers, even those who are “certified” by TAA, tend to actually know little or nothing about the law, even landlord/tenant law. I would expect them to know even less than zero about concealed or open carry law. And what they think they know often makes them very difficult to deal with.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 11:04:32 AM by BK »

Allison Scott Muzik

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2016, 10:47:35 AM »
Thanks BK....  they posted the sign 30.07  Wednesday so I will have to double check the lease agreement. I work in a Real Estate office, I might be able to get a current TAA lease agreement to review. Thanks-A

BK

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2016, 12:31:01 PM »
Allison, you're most welcome.

You should also review any other documents that accompany and are referenced in the lease agreement.

Again, I am not a lawyer and am not giving legal advice, but be aware that in the event your carry of a gun (whether concealed or open or both) in the common areas of the apartment complex is prohibited by your lease agreement, any non-written assurances of non-prohibition to the contrary that may be given to you by the owners of the complex, their managers, employees or agents, will likely not be binding. As a real estate professional, you understand the statute of frauds, which requires any agreement regarding real property to be in writing to be binding. In other words and for example, in the event the apartment manager tells tenants orally something like, "Oh, don't worry about that provision in the lease agreement, because we don't really care if you carry a concealed handgun," such an assurance may not be legally binding on them if and when it gets down to the nitty gritty.

Also, if you have tenant's insurance, which is by the way very inexpensive and very good to have, you should read your policy and discuss with your agent regarding any liability coverage afforded to you under the policy with regard to firearms.

I hope this is helpful.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2016, 12:33:07 PM by BK »

BK

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2016, 12:50:06 PM »
P.S. - You might also want to take a good look at the 30.07 signs to see if they meet all the requirements under the code.

If they don't meet the requirements, see if you can take photos of them for later use if you need them for defense purposes. But try to do that in such a way that the apartment complex employees and neighbors don't see.

My experience with apartment complex management has been that they consider tenants to be more like hostages than tenants, they expect to be kissed-up to, they are extremely overly-defensive, and any tenant who shows the slightest bit of challenge to their authority or resistance to being bullied by them is immediately labeled as a trouble-maker and likely to be non-renewed.

Katfish

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2016, 04:50:04 PM »

BK - sad to read such (but certainly NOT a surprise in the least)

THANKS for the excellent intel from your side!

Somehow I feel an effective argument 'might' be made for traveling (walking) DIRECTLY to one's vehicle from one's apartment or vice versa - but who knows?

Yet another reason I'd not choose apartment living...............

BK

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2016, 09:05:22 PM »
Katfish, thanks for your comments.

You could be right about the direct travel argument. I just don't know. As a layman and not a lawyer, I suppose it is possible for a tenant to sign away even that right. But with that I dare not try to go any deeper than I have already, as that would probably be getting into some pretty deep legal thought that is way over my head.

When it comes to apartment complexes, I think one primary thing to keep in mind, based on my own personal experiences with owners and managers of apartment complexes, is that the gun-toting tenant is typically dealing with very unreasonable people who care little or nothing about the gun-toting tenant's rights to protect himself, and who principally care only about minimizing their own liability and maximizing their own bottom line.

Thanks again.

I hope Allison is able to work this out for herself.

Kyle45preferred

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2016, 09:06:15 PM »
Thanks BK....  they posted the sign 30.07  Wednesday so I will have to double check the lease agreement. I work in a Real Estate office, I might be able to get a current TAA lease agreement to review. Thanks-A


Call Texas Law shield and ask to speak to an Attorney. Personally I don't see how they can legally prevent you from carrying firearms from your car to your apartment. They may be in violation, but I would move as soon as possible. Also since you are a legal resident I think that would be null and void, I think they are posting that for people that may be visiting.

Neighbor

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2016, 04:41:27 PM »
Allison, has anything new developed with your apartment posting 30.07 or is it still just basically they don't want folks to be able to see the weapon?

yabu

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2016, 06:20:31 AM »
BK, I checked my current lease and it has not changed from the one you quoted.  I too was very concerned about the wording of para 20.  The use of the word "may" is very subjective and troubling.  The only way around it, as I see it, is to carry concealed and don't talk about it.  I don't see how anyone can be alarmed if they don't know you are carrying in the first place.  My complex also has a 30.07 posted on the front gate.  I'm sure the decision to do that came from corporate headquarters.  I think it is significant that they did not post a 30.06 sign.  So I will continue to carry concealed and keep my mouth shut about it.  If I do that I don't think it will be a problem.

Buzz

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Re: 30.07 at my Apartment complex.
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2016, 12:53:36 PM »
yabu,

I think your conclusions and your approach for avoiding trouble are exactly right.

I agree, too, that it is significant that they did not post a 30.006 sign.

Another thing is that in a way, even though paragraph 20 may infringe on the manner in which tenants possess firearms on the property, the very inclusion of such a regulation on the method of possession is an implied acknowledgment on the landlord's part that possession is indeed allowed.