Author Topic: Confrontation Question  (Read 5454 times)

szgourides

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Confrontation Question
« on: January 13, 2016, 08:58:23 PM »
I'm a member of TLS and this morning I was at a convince store pumping gas and the guy next to me finished getting his gas and then pulled his truck next to me and asked if I knew him because he was wondering why I was looking at him through my sunglasses and that most people when they get out say hi to the person they are looking at(which I didn't even realized I was looking his way) and do I think I am better than he is and that I was a piece of shit. At this point he appeared like he was getting ready to get out of his truck so I stood back and put my hand in my back pocket where my gun was and then he looked down at my hand and told me to F*** off and drove away. My question is if he had gotten out but had no weapon but was coming toward me would it be illegal to pull my gun to try and get him to stop coming toward me? The guy was twice my size and a fight wasn't going to be in my favor if he had attacked me. Any insight would be appreciated.

kurtpenn

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2016, 10:07:04 PM »
I'm interested to hear what the lawyers say... but I my thought is... You're just gonna have to take the ass whooping, or whoop ass on your aggressor.  Pulling a weapon in my book is a 'last resort'....  If you ended up shooting the person, could you really justify self defense.  Would you really feel like your life was in danger or you were going to be permanently maimed?  Now... if the aggressor exited the vehicle with some type of weapon, bat, crowbar or something... that would change the entire situation.  In my concealed carry class, the instructor said that sometimes a fight is just a fight... using deadly force is a huge step in the 'use of force' scale.

Think about it... what if the individual did exit the vehicle... and come towards you... and then just yelled!  If you'd pulled your weapon, you could easily be considered the aggressor and then what if the individual was armed and felt his live in danger and shoots you.  What would the jury think?  I'm not saying your feelings and thoughts aren't valid... there is just a lot to think about with the responsibility of carrying a firearm.

I will be interested to hear how the lawyers respond....

rp91855

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2016, 09:33:18 AM »
***NOT A LAWYER***

The key is, were you in fear for your life regardless if he had a weapon or not? If not, you are not justified in using deadly force. Also, remember you are going to need to be able to explain why you believed your life was in danger. Just saying you were in fear for your life is not enough. Too many what if scenarios to address but being in fear for you life is a basic key element for self defense. Again, not a lawyer and I too am interested how TLS will respond.

Grace & Peace Brothers!
81 Bravo all the way!

cmill89

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2016, 02:32:24 PM »
The law considers pointing a gun at someone as use of non-lethal force, so if you are justified in using force against someone in a situation, you can point your gun at them. It is only considered deadly force once you pull the trigger.

KEEP in mind, they have to do something to allow you to legally use force, I would suggest reading the texas penal code on what is considered justifiable use of force and deadly force and know the differences between the crimes. It's a very fine line. And as stated above, if a reasonable person would be in fear of imminent danger to themselves, including death, is usually a good indication of justifiable force/deadly force.

Of course the key in that situation is always diffuse and evade. It's always easier to "appear to be a puss" in their eyes and not have to shoot them. I have no problem backing down and saying look man, i don't want any trouble, just go on about your day, you're right, i'm a piece of shit lol.

That is ALOT easier than pulling a gun on someone and possibly having to shoot them.

Avoidance and evasion should always be the first option, pulling the trigger, always the absolute last.

Of course this is why I am a big proponent of open carry, the confrontation probably would've never occurred in the first place if he had visually established that you were armed. And before the tactical advantage experts come in, there is no tactical advantage in appearing a weak, unarmed victim. Hence the reason every the majority of police open carry, it is a major deterrent for confrontation and potential targeting for mugging and other crimes.

LucasMcCain

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2016, 01:10:16 PM »
Not a lawyer.

While I agree with the majority of your post, cmill89, I think you may be mistaken about one thing. If I remember correctly, displaying a gun is use of force. Pointing a gun at someone would be use of deadly force. I'm sure a lawyer will chime in here shortly, but I wanted to mention this in the meantime. Again, I could certainly be remembering wrong, and I am not a lawyer.

ceejmo

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2016, 05:25:07 AM »
Also not a lawyer but I attended one of the TLS seminars and recall them saying that displaying a firearm is use of force until you pull the trigger. Then it becomes deadly force.

TLS, please correct me if I'm wrong.


TexasLawShield

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2016, 11:33:49 AM »
szgourides,

Unfortunately, detailed fact scenarios like this rarely have clear cut answers. The truth is that the answer depends on how a jury would view your actions. The best guides are the Penal Code Sections dealing with use of force and deadly force.
Sec. 9.31.  SELF-DEFENSE.  (a)  Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.
Sec. 9.32.  DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON.  (a)  A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1)  if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
(2)   when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A)  to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or
(B)  to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery.

Colonel

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 08:06:59 PM »
Here is my take on how I probably would have handled it:
1. After his first verbal assault, just apologize and tell him that there was no offense intended.
2. If he gets out of his pickup, determine if his moves are aggressive or not. Did he slam the door or are his fists clinched? If aggressive, ask him to not come any closer and put my hand on my gun ready to draw. If not aggressive, apologize again and introduce myself.
3. If he continues to close distance in an aggressive manner, pull the weapon and tell him again to not come closer.
4. If he does not stop, point the weapon and be ready to fire.
5. If he still does not stop, I would probably shoot.
In my estimation, the guy that made the original post did everything right. The situation was de-escalated and no one got hurt. Good Job!
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 08:10:00 PM by Colonel »

mayfieldh

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2016, 11:42:40 AM »
After reading this confrontation that “szgourides” went through, it is very strange how the law works differently if you were a police officer.  I use to be a police officer so I know.

Let’s just say that “szgourides” was a police officer OFF DUTY and this happens and the aggressor got out of his truck and went toward him in the manner to grab and fight him.  If he would have shot him, would he have been justified then because he is a police officer afraid for his life.  Seems like the law & the jury gives the police officer more authority to pull their weapons but we cannot unless the aggressor makes physical contact with us.

I just think there should be more changes in the law about when to pull your weapon, police or not.  We are the same person in uniform or out.

I would really like to hear if TLS agrees with me or not..

shorthairptr

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2016, 02:06:11 PM »
Also not a lawyer

Great question by the way...

First line of defense is COMMON SENSE. If you can use your mouth then do so. If you can use your legs then do so. If you are at a gas station you can easily take coverage behind your vehicle. If you are at the back of your vehicle and hes at your front, I truthfully doubt he is going to catch you while you guys play follow the leader. While doing this either you call 911 or scream for someone else to call 911. I'm guessing most incidents like yours end in a "fk you" and they leave.

We've all been in a similar situation (not only at a gas station) but I've always said "Sorry I was looking at your car" or "sorry, I thought you were someone else". Yesterday I was at a store and a guy noticed I was looking at him. He easily could have been an a-hole and got in my face but instead he was cool about it. I just made a joke about when its 60 degrees in Florida everyone dresses like its 0 because he was wearing layers on layers. He both walked away laughing..

Stay Safe



Kyle45preferred

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2016, 09:50:31 PM »
I'm a member of TLS and this morning I was at a convince store pumping gas and the guy next to me finished getting his gas and then pulled his truck next to me and asked if I knew him because he was wondering why I was looking at him through my sunglasses and that most people when they get out say hi to the person they are looking at(which I didn't even realized I was looking his way) and do I think I am better than he is and that I was a piece of shit. At this point he appeared like he was getting ready to get out of his truck so I stood back and put my hand in my back pocket where my gun was and then he looked down at my hand and told me to F*** off and drove away. My question is if he had gotten out but had no weapon but was coming toward me would it be illegal to pull my gun to try and get him to stop coming toward me? The guy was twice my size and a fight wasn't going to be in my favor if he had attacked me. Any insight would be appreciated.



Face palm! To the people saying you need to be physically assaulted and that you need to man up and take it. No you do not. You can kill someone from a punch, and I can pull up multiple articles the most recent being the teen in High School that punched another teen, and the teen died. Not to mention brain trauma can affect you for the rest of your life. My thoughts and view is if you punch me you are trying to kill me. Because I will not hold back, I'm a peaceful person, but I will be dammed if I am going to get beat up. I had an altercation in Whataburger, now mind you I'm 23, 5'9 210 pounds and I have some muscle, I can shoulder press 135 above my head 8 times, and deadlift 345lbs. This guy was in  his 40's or 50s 5'6 and I don't know 180 hispanic or white, and was their with his grand daughter or family member she was like 6, and waved his hand in front of me, because the cashier was quiet, and I was on my phone and apparently the cashier was trying to talk to me. Anyways I ordered my food, then I said to the man that was pretty rude of you, he got all in my face, and made a veiled threat, had he attacked me I would've pulled my gun, and put emptied my magazine in his chest, or until he stopped. I also told him to stay away from me, practice verbal commands when at the range, and practice stay away, stop, do not come forward, It's not a game, and I applaud you I think he got the hint his day was going to be a very bad day and left once he saw your hand. The only thing I would have done different, is probably drawn my gun secretly, and taken cover and told him to leave, or just walk inside the store, but walk backwards. You didn't know if he had a gun or not. It's a tough situation all around, but always try to deescalate, it's better than having to fill out paperwork, and having to explain why you had to use deadly force. Another story was I was with my friend last night, and we were downtown SA, now my friend is black and I'm white, and this white guy, 40's 50's road up on his bike, and both my friend and I were startled, he was a drug addict, and asking for directions then asked for change, we were both cordial to the guy, but what if he asked for change and we didn't give him any change, that's when you have to be prepared to draw and shoot. Always look around, and it's hard to always be aware of your situations at all times, but if you are aware chances are you will be less likely to be a victim. And confront your threat, their less likely to try anything if your confronting them staring them down. Don't blame yourself he may have wanted to start a fight for who knows what reason. But you did the right thing. But if you legally tell someone to stop coming toward you, you pull your gun and they still continue forward you need to shoot to stop the threat. Any sane person that has a gun pulled on them, and they are going to run the other way. I'm not trying to be a know it all, or rude, but I'm a TLS member, and you don't have to provide proof of your membership to post on forums.

nestingdoll

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2016, 10:21:36 PM »
great info.

Katfish

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 12:14:50 PM »

Kyle - hey don't shoot the messenger...................

Quote
waved his hand in front of me, because the cashier was quiet, and I was on my phone and apparently the cashier was trying to talk to me

IMHO - PREVENTION far exceeds de-escalation in overall importance!

If your need to be on the phone was important - then STEP OUT of LINE until you complete your call or it was You who was being rude.

KSMike

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Re: Confrontation Question
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2018, 02:34:18 PM »
Wow... in Kansas this could potentially get you charged with Aggravated Assault. Just because a person approaches you in an angry manner, does NOT mean you can point your gun at them! This entire scenario is chock full of problems from the beginning. Simply apologize and move on... if the subject continues to cause problems, follows you, or becomes aggressive, then stand your ground and give a verbal warning of being armed. One of the golden rules of having a weapon on your person is to never point it at anything you aren't willing to destroy...