Author Topic: Is Class C 30.06 Misdemeanor violation a "sign and drive" arrest?  (Read 2612 times)

Halftime Oracle

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Is Class C 30.06 Misdemeanor violation a "sign and drive" arrest?
« on: September 26, 2017, 01:08:08 PM »
It is my understanding in Texas that an officer has the option to actually take you to jail while he is processing a Class C misdemeanor, even for a traffic citation, at his discretion.  Since there is no penalty other than a Class C misdemeanor ($250) in Texas for carrying past a commercial business 30.06 sign, I am planning to carry into business anyway because the penalty is only a fine. 

HOWEVER, it is also my view in general that most cops not only CAN be, but WILL be, pr**** when given the leeway to do so, so my questions are these:   

Scenario 1: I enter a business (not one of the special "escalation" premises like a hospital, but for example a local 30.06 posted grocery store) and am observed by an employee concealed carrying a handgun, if the employee says "leave" and I don't, I can be criminally trespassed for remaining.   Correct? 

Scenario 2:  The employee says, "You know, I don't like all you creeps with concealed firearms.  Wait right there.  Don't you leave.  I am calling the cops."  Do I have an obligation to identify myself to a grocery employee, and then stay at their command until the cops get there?  If I don't, have I further complicated the 30.06 Class C sign violation with another crime of resisting what it, in effect, a citizen's arrest?   

Scenario 3:  If the employee can identify me anyway because of my shopping there, can they post-facto call the cops to report a crime and they themselves provide identifying information to a cop that I was in there earlier and violated 30.06, but left when they called me out on it.  In that case, can the cops just swing by my house and write me the 30.06 citation because of the probable cause and a witness that I conceal-carried past 30.06? 

Scenario 4:   If a cop observes the bulge of a weapon under my shirt and ASSUMES it might be a gun but doesn't KNOW it is a gun (i.e., he has suspicion that I might be carrying in violation of the 30.06 sign on the premises OF A PRIVATE BUSINESS), can he stop me at that business in the absence of any other probable cause (on private property) and demand / command "raise your shirt and let me see" or would this be considered an illegal search and seizure?  If he says "raise your shirt,"  wouldn't I already have to be under arrest (Probable Cause) and not simply under an "investigative detention" if he is telling me to expose my underlings to him by raising my shirt?  Its OK to say there is no settled case law and you don't know, if that's the case. 

Scenario 5:  A cop has reasonable suspicion to believe that 30.06 has been violated and actually confirms it through closer observation or through scenario 4 above.   When the Class C violation occurs, is this a "sign and drive" citation, or do cops make an arrest, take you down to the justice center, throw you in a holding cell, and generally make your day a miserable waste before issuing you the Class C citation?   Even though the penalty is clear ($250) and you are guilty and will face a judge and will have to pay, There is no jail time.  However, "temporary detention" at the justice center and "purposeful inconvenience" is not "an arrest and charge."  So...  IS there a pattern of behavior where cops who don't like armed sheeple act like pr**** and arrest you and haul you to jail just to make things extremely inconvenient on top of the $250 fine, when you are simply carrying to just protect yourself and your family, and not to be an ugly, militant, nasty pr*** to anyone in the absence of other molestations by business owners or cops.   

I don't want my kids to go to CPS, even for a half day or a day because I got hauled in to jail by Colonel Flag when I am just concealed carrying to protect them and me, not to make a scene or a statement.  I also don't want to be threatened with this circumstance when the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign is clearly stated to be a fine only, but I don't trust cops.


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Re: Is Class C 30.06 Misdemeanor violation a "sign and drive" arrest?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 04:10:37 PM »
Halftime Oracle,

To begin, it is never a good idea to choose to break the law. The mere act of walking beyond a 30.06/30.07 sign with a handgun is a Class C misdemeanor.  The legal implications of your scenarios are as follow:

Scenario 1:
If an employee asks you to leave for carrying your firearm in violation of 30.06/30.07 signage, and you refuse, you are guilty of a criminal trespass. In fact, if you enter a business and are given oral notice that carrying a firearm is prohibited, failure to leave as instructed will constitute a Class A misdemeanor. TPC § 30.06(d) states:
An offense under this section is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a fine not to exceed $200, except that the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it is shown on the trial of the offense that, after entering the property, the license holder was personally given the notice by oral communication…and subsequently failed to depart.
In other words, once the employee asks you to leave and you refuse, you have committed a Class A misdemeanor. The punishment for a Class A misdemeanor is a jail sentence up to one year and a fine up to $4,000, much more than the $200 fine you originally faced.
Scenario 2:
If after Scenario 1, the employee attempts to detain you until police arrive, you are within your rights to walk away. Although the employee likely is allowed to detain you, you are not required to abide by their instructions.
You are not obligated to follow the orders of a common citizen, even while that person is performing a citizen’s arrest. If they are not law enforcement or acting on orders from law enforcement, there is no crime in disobeying their orders. This does not prevent the employee from calling the police, as I will explain in Scenario 3.

Scenario 3:
If you walk out of the store and employees choose to press charges against you for carrying a handgun on the premises, they can call the police and file the appropriate report. If a police investigation indicates that you broke the law, an officer is entitled to issue you a citation regardless of whether he does it at the grocery store or at your house.

Scenario 4:
The weapons check you described would be legal under Terry v. Ohio. If an officer observes a “bulge” under your shirt and believes it is a handgun, he has reasonable suspicion that you are committing a crime (criminal trespass under TPC § 30.06). Because of this, he is entitled to temporarily detain you and to search the outside of your clothing for weapons or contraband. Asking you to lift your shirt is a courtesy he does not owe you, and if you refuse, he can still pat you down to disarm you.
Once he finds your weapon, he has probable cause that you have committed a crime and is entitled to arrest you if he chooses.

Scenario 5:
Under the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure, police can arrest you for almost any crime they see you commit, no matter how small. This means they can arrest you and give you a hard time for a Class C misdemeanor if they choose.
That said, in our experience police never arrest for violation of 30.06/30.07 signs. It is unlikely that the circumstances you described in Scenario 4 and 5 would arise, as the most likely people to enforce a “no handgun” policy are the managers and owners of that establishment.

Rather than testing the limits of criminal trespass laws, we recommend denying your business to those establishments who don’t celebrate your Second Amendment rights. You could even print of “No Guns, No Money” cards and give them to the managers of these establishment. These cards explain why you’re denying your business. If enough conscientious citizens do this, these businesses will get the message and take down their signs.


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Re: Is Class C 30.06 Misdemeanor violation a "sign and drive" arrest?
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 08:03:18 PM »
Halftime, your statement on a public forum that you intend to disobey 30.06 signs probably won't make your defense any easier!


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Re: Is Class C 30.06 Misdemeanor violation a "sign and drive" arrest?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2017, 10:14:30 AM »
On the sign issue, in my town, a convenience store I often shop in came under new ownership and management, and the the new owners put up 30.06 and 30.07 signs in windows of the stores.

Upon seeing the signs in the windows on my next visit, I stuck my head in the door and told the clerk that I have seen the 30.06 and 30.07 signs in the windows, and told her to please tell the new owners that as long as I am prohibited from carrying in that store, I will never, ever enter the store to buy anything, and I will never ever buy gas at their pumps, and I will also tell everyone I know to do the same - and that as a result, they will lose a significant amount of sales every single month.

I drove by the store a week or so later, and the signs had been removed.

On the "lift your shirt" issue, speaking only for myself, I would be very, very careful about placing my hand anywhere near my handgun upon being approached by an LEO. Upon being approached by an LEO, I would always keep my hands in clear view in front of my body, and preferably away from my body, like on my steering wheel, or on the hood of my vehicle, or on a table top, and in all cases preferably in clear view of a dash cam or security camera.

On the other issues, this is very good conversation and very helpful.