Author Topic: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event  (Read 646 times)

Halftime Oracle

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Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« on: November 05, 2017, 06:37:25 PM »
Section 46.035 - (2) specifies that a Licensed Carry Holder may not carry to a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event.  Given the tragic mass shooting in YET ANOTHER "Gun Free Zone" today in Sutherland Springs -- gun free except for the mass murderer, that is --  it got me to worrying about a the potential for a mass shooting at an indoor CLUB sporting event. 

For example, Club Basketball and Club Volleyball both have large numbers of families and their kids tightly packed into arenas, both very large and very small, and these events are never staffed by armed security.  Families, of course, are fully focused on the efforts of their kiddos in competition during a sporting event -- so their head is not on a swivel with a high awareness for any threats -- and given the density of people in the arena and the very low levels of security, these places would undoubtedly be as soft and vulnerable a target as a country church. 

Club sporting events are sanctioned neither by a school nor the Texas UIL, nor are they professional sporting events, so 46.035 would not seem to apply.  But I wanted to confirm that (1) any such club events are in no way covered by the TPC section 46.035, and (2) that any stated policy against weapons at the events by the sanctioning body would not constitute "effective notice" with regard to Texas criminal law to escalate the criminal sanction into a Class A misdemeanor. 



Neighbor

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Re: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 06:01:47 PM »
Halftime,

Will have to wait for the lawyers on part of your question but wanted to clarify that a church in Texas is not a "gun free zone" unless it is actually posted 30.06. I carry every Sunday at my church and am quite surprised that the gunman did not run into someone with a gun inside that rural church. (actually he may have but the "good guy" may have lost and we may not know yet).
I have done some self study in the possible outcome of my 9mm Shield vs. an AR-15 style weapon - some divine intervention might be needed.

Halftime Oracle

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Re: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 03:55:14 PM »
Hey, Neighbor,

Thanks for the clarification.  I am aware of the law with regard to churches, who must post signs, which many do.  But if they do, it puts legally armed citizens not just in jeopardy of a simple $200 fine, but puts us, rather, in a position to lose our LTC, go to jail for a year, and pay a $4000 fine if we violate the boundaries of that establishment while armed.   We’re not in Kansas any more, Toto, when Texas lawmakers give power like that to a church or a hospital. 

But regardless, whether the attendees were unarmed/disarmed:
  • Legally (30.06 sign),
  • By policy (“We don’t allow guns in our services.  Please don’t”),
  • By humiliation (“Oh my God, you wear your gun to church? What the hell is wrong with you, freak?”),
  • By personal negligence (“I’ll never need my firearm in MY church.  It’s a very safe place.”),
  • By Pollyanna-like stupidity (“God will protect his own in His own House.”), or
  • By the proverbial but all-too-common Battered Christian Syndrome (“God hurts me to help me.  It is all a part of God’s grand plan.  Anyone killed will be in a better place.  If it is God’s will I be gunned down in church, then so be it.  Amen.”)
Whichever reason above led rural Texans not to carry in their local small-town church, the fact remains that the church was, at the time and day of the incident, a Gun Free Zone except for the murderer’s guns.  This is obvious in that the shooter stopped to reload at least once, according to witness accounts, he was methodical, and he carefully aimed for headshots, even on crying children.  You don’t do that casually and methodically if you are under fire yourself (Oh Fudge, I am being shot at).  If just one or two attendees in SSFBC had a weapon that day, this would be an entirely different story than 27 dead and 20 more wounded.   Personally, I can’t imagine the normalcy bias under which I wouldn’t Rhino-charge this freak if my family were under fire and I were unarmed, but there are no reports of it so far, so I guess no one did.   So… he just kept walking and shooting while screaming Christians hid under pews and experienced first-hand at least FORTY SEVEN rounds.   

Disarmament by policy (whether through 30.06 signage, or by request of the business), when those institutions or businesses provide no, or substantially little, security, is basically an invitation by your federal and state overlords to die defenseless, and it is becoming more and more common.  In the case of the question I raised on this thread, I’m trying to understand the level of legal threat to me for violating a national sports organizations' policy.   Is it $4K, Jail, and no LTC.  Is it a UCW charge?   Is it a second school-marm scold on this board that I won’t be able to defend myself in court against the Class C misdemeanor because I published an intent not to comply?

Also note that for Sutherland Springs, the abject incompetence of the Armed Forces, and the Federal Government, the FBI, and on and on – and this from what SHOULD be our most COMPETENT branches of federal government -- actually contributed in large measure to the murders and mutilation in this case.  The shooter had legal guns, despite escaping a mental hospital, despite threatening his superiors in the armed forces, despite an attempt to sneak guns into a position where he could murder his superiors, despite a domestic violence conviction in which he cracked his two-year-old's skull, despite a mis-named dishonorable discharge from the military, despite an incompetent and coddling federal judge who assisted.   Just a whole string of cluster-F incompetence by career incompetents.  And these same folks are SETTING UP these places where you are under threat for loss of your LTC and a year in Jail if you don’t disarm. 

Gun owners who are LTC holders are, in extremely large measure, good, moral people who try to go about their lives without offending the law, and without offending businesses or being morally out of kilter with requests made in good conscience not to carry.   My church asks its members not to carry, but they provide armed off-duty uniformed police in the building and have a secret clutch of under-cover LTC members whom they have also asked to carry during services.  It’s a big and wealthy church, though. 

But in the case of my question, there is an organizational policy, by a national sports organization, against weapons which includes org POLICY punishments for carrying your weapon, and yet the organization provides NO armed security for the events which draw hundreds (at the smallest), and 10’s of thousands (at the largest) events.  I’m just trying to evaluate what my attitude and behaviors should be with regard to voluntarily disarming when I have no choice but to patronize this organized business for the sake of my children, knowing that every single person in the arena is at risk for entire 3 or 4-day weekends at a time with ZERO possibility of any armed response to a bad guy who is intent on murdering multiple dozens of law-abiding folks.  It happened at the Bataclan, the Pulse Nightclub, the Aurora theater, Sutherland Springs… and… and… and…   it will continue.

I'm not an asshole.  I am a good guy with a gun... who doesn't want to die unarmed in an ambush with a bad guy who has a gun while minding my own business and trying to enjoy life with my children in perfect rich-target environment. Like the good south Texas people of Sutherland Springs.
 

TexasLawShield

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Re: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2017, 03:31:49 PM »
Halftime Oracle,

(1) You are most likely correct that a club sporting event is excluded from TPC 46.035(b)(2). Section 46.035(b)(2) prohibits LTC holders from carrying a handgun at a “high school, collegiate, or professional sporting even or an interscholastic event.” Clearly, what you described will not fall into high school, interscholastic, or collegiate events, even if the participants are the age of schoolchildren. For instance, it is perfectly acceptable to carry your handgun at a “pee wee” football game, as long as it isn’t school sponsored or posted with 30.06/30.07 signs.

Unfortunately, we do not have a definition for what constitutes a “professional” sporting event, so it is a bit of a gray area. A general rule is that as long as the game is amateur in nature, it likely falls outside of 46.035(b)(2). But, it’s worth noting that the event can morph into something different. For example, if there is a significant prize associated with victory, it may cross the line into a professional sporting event and into the territory of TPC 46.035. Based on your description, these club sporting events are likely amateur events outside the scope of TPC 46.035(b)(2).

To be on the safe side, any time you may be going to an event that may fall under TPC 46.035, please feel free to contact Texas Law Shield and speak with an independent program attorney.

(2) Under Texas Penal Code 30.06 and 30.07, any written notice provided by the organization must be consistent with the text of the statute or be substantially compliant so as to give you effective notice. Whether a sign has given you effective notice is ultimately up to a judge and jury.

With that in mind, the policy written on the club’s website will be insufficient. Remember though, the organization is entitled to post 30.06/30.07 signs at the entrance or to give you oral notice that carry is prohibited. Either approach is enforceable with criminal penalties, and if you’re given oral notice, refusal to leave is a class A misdemeanor.