Author Topic: Failure to conceal  (Read 11511 times)

rb5531

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Failure to conceal
« on: March 18, 2014, 07:01:48 PM »
Is seeing a bulge under your shirt failure to conceal?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2014, 10:19:52 AM »
No, a bulge showing from under your shirt would not be considered failure to conceal. Concealment is keeping the handgun or any part of the gun from becoming actually visible. Seeing an outline, "printing," or anything else is not considered failure to conceal.

Thank you for the question.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

shorthairptr

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2014, 11:11:45 PM »
Is "printing" illegal in any states (Florida)? Depending on my pants, I will wear a pocket holster, put that holster in my front left pant pocket but put something (ex. cell phone) in front of the gun so there would not be any printing..

thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2014, 10:12:31 AM »
shorthairptr,

We apologize for taking so long to answer your question. Keep in mind that this answer only applies to Florida.

We have researched this issue and have not been able to find any case law that addresses the issue of printing. We do not believe it is illegal for this printing to occur.  All of the case law we are aware of involves a physical portion of the firearm actually being visible.

As a practical matter, if printing is occurring, probably the best thing a person can do it to work on their concealing technique to avoid any potential negative consequences.

Thank you for the question. We hope that helps in your situation.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 09:25:55 AM »
After doing additional research, we have found a case that says that a completely revealed firearm is not concealed.  The case also says that to be concealed, the  firearm need not be COMPLETELY concealed.

Hope that makes it more clear.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Staidan

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2014, 04:29:13 PM »
Just curious about that same situation in Texas?
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TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2014, 03:32:28 PM »
Here in Texas, concealed means out of plain view. If any portion of the gun can be seen by another person, it is considered unconcealed.
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Staidan

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2014, 07:16:26 AM »
Thanks.
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shorthairptr

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 08:39:50 PM »
Quote from: "TexasLawShield"
After doing additional research, we have found a case that says that a completely revealed firearm is not concealed.  The case also says that to be concealed, the  firearm need not be COMPLETELY concealed.

Hope that makes it more clear.

Very clear...As long as its completely concealed (regardless if it is printing or not) is still LEGAL.

I relayed the answer to my father who has been game hunting for years (mostly deer & bird hunting) but only past few years started carrying and he thought printing & concealed were both illegal. FYI: He was also the one that told me about US Law Shield which I am very glad he did.

I am still a beginner (CCW license Nov'12) so some of my questions might be obvious to others but is still new to me.

Thank you ,
Howard
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Qwerty

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2014, 08:05:11 PM »
Apologies for beating a dead horse:

Serious questions from a JD, sorry to be splitting hairs, just pretend this is a law school final exam.

Quote
Subsections (a) and (h), Section 46.035, Penal
    Code, are amended to read as follows:
           (a)  A license holder commits an offense if the license
    holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
    under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
    and intentionally displays the handgun in plain
    view of another person in a public place.


1. What is the definition of "intentionally displays"? Making a genuine effort to conceal, which results in 99% of the handgun being concealed?

2. What is the definition of "in plain view"? 100% of the handgun is visible? 50%? 10%? 1%? 0.001%?

3. What is the definition of "another person"? LEO? Someone over age 21? age 18? 1-day old? What if the other person is blind - is it thus legally possible to be "in plain view" to a blind person?

4. What is the definition of "in a public place"? The lobby/cafeteria of an office building? An attorney's office inside an office building?

5. Is a CHL-holder acting lawfully in TX if:

(a) they conceal a full-size handgun in a "5.11 Holster Shirt" (http://http://www.511tactical.com/holster-shirt.html), which has two velcro patches to hold the conceal compartment shut, and I suppose theoretically, a person "could" see a tiny piece of the handgun magazine's baseplate through the gaps between the two velcro patches.

(b) they conceal a sub-compact handgun in a "Sneaky Pete" (http://http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/ruger-lcp-sneaky-pete-holster-belt-clip/), which clips to a person's belt (essentially making it OWB), and has a "flap" which folds over to be held shut on the main body via magnets, leaving a tiny gap on both sides of "flap" where it folds over, and, theoretically, a person "could" see a tiny piece of the handgun.

(6) Changing gears, instead of talking about handguns, lets talk about mag pouches, magazines, and magazines filled with cartridges. Do the same laws that require concealment of handguns require concealment of ammunition? Different laws that requires concealment of ammunition? Or, can ammunition be "open carried"?


Quote
by TexasLawShield Wed May 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Here in Texas, concealed means out of plain view. If any portion of the gun can be seen by another person, it is considered unconcealed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2014, 10:36:04 AM »
Qwerty,

In response to your questions:

1. Unfortunately, the courts nor the legislature have defined the term "display." We could say that common sense tells us that any sort of act that causes a handgun to become unconcealed and viewable to another person in a public place is a violation of the law. Keep in mind that accidental displays are not against the law, so you must be doing some act that would make the firearm become unconcealed.

2. "In plain view" means that the ordinary eye would be able to see any part of the gun and recognize it as a gun. Remember that these terms are not defined by the Penal Code, only through case law.

3. Here again, the code does not define the term "another person" but any living, breathing, human being who is able to determine that you have a gun on you unconcealed meets the definition.

4. Your examples are both public places. When you are on your own private property is basically the only time you are not in a public place. Private property includes standing in your front yard, even if other people can easily see you.

5(a). If any portion of the gun is in plain view, whether it be the butt of the gun or a small, tiny piece of the gun, it is considered unconcealed. Make sure that your holster is able to conceal every portion of the gun. If it does not, you are in violation of the law.

5(b). Typically in our experience, Sneaky Petes fully conceal a firearm, however, if any portion can be seen by the public, then it can be considered unconcealed, as said above.

6. No, you may openly carry ammunition. Ammunition is not considered to be a firearm.

Hope that clears things up for you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

Qwerty

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2014, 01:54:05 AM »
Ok, just looking for that "bright line", not trying to be disagreeable.

So, if I properly understand what you are saying, a CHL holder's selection (decision) of a holster would be considered an "act" that could subject them to criminal liability.

A CHL holder carries OWB with a (sweat)shirt over it, but when he raises his arms to obtain an item from the top shelf of a store, a portion of his pistol becomes visible to another person.

Is this an "accident"? If so, why? Could it not be argued that a "reasonable" person/(CHL holder) could/should foresee such an occurrence, and thus the intentional decision to carry in that manner can not be considered an accident? How can what is intentional, also be an accident?


Quote
We could say that common sense tells us that any sort of act that causes a handgun to become unconcealed and viewable to another person in a public place is a violation of the law. Keep in mind that accidental displays are not against the law, so you must be doing some act that would make the firearm become unconcealed.



5.11 holster shirts are what works best for me. I understand where you are suggesting the "bright line" be drawn. If I were to wear a white holster shirt, and attempt to conceal a black pistol, I assume that all anyone would have to claim is that they saw "black" between the velcro. Seems like black will be the suggested color for holster shirts, because it would be unlikely that a person can "prove" they could distinguish the black from the shirt from the black (magazine baseplate) of the pistol.

I assume the evidentiary standard is "beyond a reasonable doubt"?

(The same logic/rationale would seemingly apply to a black pistol inside a black Sneaky Pete, but I will have to check and verify this later, as I believe that when the flap folds over, there should be a "gap" on both sides of the holster, and an unobstructed view of light passing through should exist, if not, then some portion of the black pistol is visible, and the CHL holder would be subject to criminal liability).


Quote
If any portion of the gun is in plain view, whether it be the butt of the gun or a small, tiny piece of the gun, it is considered unconcealed. Make sure that your holster is able to conceal every portion of the gun. If it does not, you are in violation of the law.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »

TexasLawShield

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Re: Failure to conceal
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2014, 03:52:34 PM »
Qwerty,

As far as a CHL holder raising his arms to get something off a top shelf in a store and exposing his firearm, this is an unintentional display of a fiream, which is not a crime.

Every scenario is going to be fact-dependent. Contrast your example with the following intentional act: a man who is wearing a sports coat with his firearm holstered. He then intentionally moves his sports coar out of the way to put his hands in his pockets, and in so doing, he displays his firearm.

The man performed an intentional act, which could be considered a violation of the law. On the other hand, say the wind blows the man's sports coat up, revealing the firearm. That is an unintentional display of the firearm and not a violation of the law.

Hope that clears things up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Guest »