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Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying in a no gun posted business, store, etc.
« Last post by TexasLawShield on November 08, 2017, 04:11:48 PM »

Texas has very specific requirements for a “no gun” sign to be effective. The Texas Penal Code sections 30.06 and 30.07 lay out these requirements including wording, letter sizes, color, location of posting, etc. In general, signs that do not comply with the requirements are not effective legal notice. Meaning you are still allowed to carry your handgun. Please note that a sign does not have to be 100% compliant to qualify as an effective sign. Just because the letters are 9/10ths of an inch does not mean the sign isn’t giving sufficient notice.

However, a picture of a gun with red circle with a line through it is NOT a legally effective sign. It could not even qualify as sufficiently compliant.  This means that you can lawfully carry your handgun past this sign.

Be aware that the owner of the building, or other person with authority such as a manager or security guard, can also give you verbal notice that they do not want you carrying your handgun. Verbal notice is effective legal notice and you will have to comply.

As independent program attorneys, we do not make coverage determinations. But, if you are lawfully carrying and you are required to use your handgun in self-defense, you will be covered. If you carry past a no gun sign that is not legally effective, such as the one you described, you are still lawfully carrying your handgun. That means your use of force in self-defense or defense of others will be covered by Texas Law Shield.

Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Last post by Halftime Oracle on November 08, 2017, 03:55:14 PM »
Hey, Neighbor,

Thanks for the clarification.  I am aware of the law with regard to churches, who must post signs, which many do.  But if they do, it puts legally armed citizens not just in jeopardy of a simple $200 fine, but puts us, rather, in a position to lose our LTC, go to jail for a year, and pay a $4000 fine if we violate the boundaries of that establishment while armed.   We’re not in Kansas any more, Toto, when Texas lawmakers give power like that to a church or a hospital. 

But regardless, whether the attendees were unarmed/disarmed:
  • Legally (30.06 sign),
  • By policy (“We don’t allow guns in our services.  Please don’t”),
  • By humiliation (“Oh my God, you wear your gun to church? What the hell is wrong with you, freak?”),
  • By personal negligence (“I’ll never need my firearm in MY church.  It’s a very safe place.”),
  • By Pollyanna-like stupidity (“God will protect his own in His own House.”), or
  • By the proverbial but all-too-common Battered Christian Syndrome (“God hurts me to help me.  It is all a part of God’s grand plan.  Anyone killed will be in a better place.  If it is God’s will I be gunned down in church, then so be it.  Amen.”)
Whichever reason above led rural Texans not to carry in their local small-town church, the fact remains that the church was, at the time and day of the incident, a Gun Free Zone except for the murderer’s guns.  This is obvious in that the shooter stopped to reload at least once, according to witness accounts, he was methodical, and he carefully aimed for headshots, even on crying children.  You don’t do that casually and methodically if you are under fire yourself (Oh Fudge, I am being shot at).  If just one or two attendees in SSFBC had a weapon that day, this would be an entirely different story than 27 dead and 20 more wounded.   Personally, I can’t imagine the normalcy bias under which I wouldn’t Rhino-charge this freak if my family were under fire and I were unarmed, but there are no reports of it so far, so I guess no one did.   So… he just kept walking and shooting while screaming Christians hid under pews and experienced first-hand at least FORTY SEVEN rounds.   

Disarmament by policy (whether through 30.06 signage, or by request of the business), when those institutions or businesses provide no, or substantially little, security, is basically an invitation by your federal and state overlords to die defenseless, and it is becoming more and more common.  In the case of the question I raised on this thread, I’m trying to understand the level of legal threat to me for violating a national sports organizations' policy.   Is it $4K, Jail, and no LTC.  Is it a UCW charge?   Is it a second school-marm scold on this board that I won’t be able to defend myself in court against the Class C misdemeanor because I published an intent not to comply?

Also note that for Sutherland Springs, the abject incompetence of the Armed Forces, and the Federal Government, the FBI, and on and on – and this from what SHOULD be our most COMPETENT branches of federal government -- actually contributed in large measure to the murders and mutilation in this case.  The shooter had legal guns, despite escaping a mental hospital, despite threatening his superiors in the armed forces, despite an attempt to sneak guns into a position where he could murder his superiors, despite a domestic violence conviction in which he cracked his two-year-old's skull, despite a mis-named dishonorable discharge from the military, despite an incompetent and coddling federal judge who assisted.   Just a whole string of cluster-F incompetence by career incompetents.  And these same folks are SETTING UP these places where you are under threat for loss of your LTC and a year in Jail if you don’t disarm. 

Gun owners who are LTC holders are, in extremely large measure, good, moral people who try to go about their lives without offending the law, and without offending businesses or being morally out of kilter with requests made in good conscience not to carry.   My church asks its members not to carry, but they provide armed off-duty uniformed police in the building and have a secret clutch of under-cover LTC members whom they have also asked to carry during services.  It’s a big and wealthy church, though. 

But in the case of my question, there is an organizational policy, by a national sports organization, against weapons which includes org POLICY punishments for carrying your weapon, and yet the organization provides NO armed security for the events which draw hundreds (at the smallest), and 10’s of thousands (at the largest) events.  I’m just trying to evaluate what my attitude and behaviors should be with regard to voluntarily disarming when I have no choice but to patronize this organized business for the sake of my children, knowing that every single person in the arena is at risk for entire 3 or 4-day weekends at a time with ZERO possibility of any armed response to a bad guy who is intent on murdering multiple dozens of law-abiding folks.  It happened at the Bataclan, the Pulse Nightclub, the Aurora theater, Sutherland Springs… and… and… and…   it will continue.

I'm not an asshole.  I am a good guy with a gun... who doesn't want to die unarmed in an ambush with a bad guy who has a gun while minding my own business and trying to enjoy life with my children in perfect rich-target environment. Like the good south Texas people of Sutherland Springs.
Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Last post by Neighbor on November 06, 2017, 06:01:47 PM »

Will have to wait for the lawyers on part of your question but wanted to clarify that a church in Texas is not a "gun free zone" unless it is actually posted 30.06. I carry every Sunday at my church and am quite surprised that the gunman did not run into someone with a gun inside that rural church. (actually he may have but the "good guy" may have lost and we may not know yet).
I have done some self study in the possible outcome of my 9mm Shield vs. an AR-15 style weapon - some divine intervention might be needed.
Ask the Lawyers / Carrying to an "un-Designated" Sporting Event
« Last post by Halftime Oracle on November 05, 2017, 06:37:25 PM »
Section 46.035 - (2) specifies that a Licensed Carry Holder may not carry to a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event.  Given the tragic mass shooting in YET ANOTHER "Gun Free Zone" today in Sutherland Springs -- gun free except for the mass murderer, that is --  it got me to worrying about a the potential for a mass shooting at an indoor CLUB sporting event. 

For example, Club Basketball and Club Volleyball both have large numbers of families and their kids tightly packed into arenas, both very large and very small, and these events are never staffed by armed security.  Families, of course, are fully focused on the efforts of their kiddos in competition during a sporting event -- so their head is not on a swivel with a high awareness for any threats -- and given the density of people in the arena and the very low levels of security, these places would undoubtedly be as soft and vulnerable a target as a country church. 

Club sporting events are sanctioned neither by a school nor the Texas UIL, nor are they professional sporting events, so 46.035 would not seem to apply.  But I wanted to confirm that (1) any such club events are in no way covered by the TPC section 46.035, and (2) that any stated policy against weapons at the events by the sanctioning body would not constitute "effective notice" with regard to Texas criminal law to escalate the criminal sanction into a Class A misdemeanor. 

Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying in a no gun posted business, store, etc.
« Last post by Randy on November 04, 2017, 07:48:16 PM »
I live in Kansas, and am only a few miles from Missouri,,,now what?
Ask the Lawyers / Re: Texas Stop and Frisk (Identify)
« Last post by Buzz on November 04, 2017, 05:07:54 PM »
"However, as a precaution, remember that police have broad discretion with arrests and reasonable suspicion is a very low bar. We advise members to save these battles for the courtroom rather than the street!"

Good advice.

Speaking for myself, if I did not have a Texas LTC and was walking down a Texas street and asked for ID, I would not provide it unless first placed under arrest or otherwise required by law to provide ID. I would also be most courteously most tight-lipped. My God-given unalienable rights as codified for U.S. citizens in the U.S. Constitution have been defended and protected from tyranny with the precious blood, guts and lives of countless brave men and women of the armed services. I will not betray them by giving up what they have purchased for me at such a high price, the highest price one can pay.

But since I do have a Texas LTC, and since the law requires it, I will always most courteously, but without kissing up, provide ID when requested, while still most courteously be most tight-lipped as I can.

In my own professional field, I represent others in business negotiations. My clients are not qualified to negotiate on their own behalf. Those who try to self-represent and negotiate on their own behalf succeed only in showing their a$$es to the counterpart and making fools of themselves. Then when they realize that they have screwed up, and they call me to take over, I am stuck with trying to fix the damage they have already done.

That's a lesson I take for myself in my own dealings with LE. Dealing with LE is not my field of expertise. I know my limitations. I am not a lawyer, a criminal defense expert, or otherwise qualified to debate the law with LE. I know that if I try to do my own talking and self-represent, I will only show them my a$$ and screw it all up for myself. So instead of debating the matter, I would instead say something like, "Thank you, officer. I'm sure my lawyer will be happy to discuss that with you."
Ask the Lawyers / How to handle an issue when someone is pick pocketed
« Last post by on November 02, 2017, 11:50:17 AM »
I was on my way to pick up a pizza a few days ago. When I go to the door of the pizza restaurant I heard an argument between an elderly lady and two men in their late 20s or early 30s. The woman was yelling at the two men to give her the wallet back. I walked over to her as well as another family that heard the dispute. Evidently the two men had stolen her wallet that was hanging over the back of her chair when she was in the restaurant next door. After the other family and I confronted the two men, they gave the woman back her money and credit card. When we called 911 they bolted away. Their was a car waiting for them around the other side of the building. I had my conceal carry weapon on me, but did not draw it as the situation did not allow me to draw it. Was there anything I could have done legally in this situation to keep the man who had stolen the wallet there at the scene?
Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying in a no gun posted business, store, etc.
« Last post by Neighbor on November 01, 2017, 08:42:15 PM »
If you are in Texas, that circle with gun and line mean absolutely nothing for a person with a concealed carry license.
Sounds like a bad deal based on information cited. Wonder if the guy had any injuries, reliable witnesses? Since the law waited 3 or 4 days to investigate and charge, wonder if they uncovered something not reported?
General Firearms Law Discussion / Re: Can I join US Law Shield in Missouri?
« Last post by TexasLawShield on November 01, 2017, 04:32:26 PM »
Great question Randy,

Yes, he absolutely can! He can give our office a call at 877-448-6839, or he can sign up online at
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