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21
Gun Talk / Shoulder Holster options S&W MP Shield 9mm
« Last post by JacobSmith54 on September 27, 2017, 11:03:30 PM »
Hello,

I am looking for another holster to use during the wintertime.  I have an IWB holster, but with colder weather coming, and a desire to expand my holster collection I'm looking for options.
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I heard a rumor that Tennessee had passed a law making business / insurance firms civilly liable (money) in the event of death or injury when disarming-by-sign of concealed-carry holders prior to entry into that business, but also extended release-of-liability protections to the business should they allow CHL holders and an incident by a CHL holder take place in that business (righteous shoot, righteous shoot with innocent bystander injury, Negligent Discharge with injury or property damage, etc.).

Are there any Tennessee attorneys who could comment on and confirm this rumor and talk a little about this provision in the law, please? 

I am from Texas, so it doesn't affect me directly, but it seems like a very good model for any state, including Texas (where I live) to put pressure on businesses not to disarm the most law abiding segment of the entire population and leave them and everyone they are around defenseless in time of attack. 

Thanks.
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It is my understanding in Texas that an officer has the option to actually take you to jail while he is processing a Class C misdemeanor, even for a traffic citation, at his discretion.  Since there is no penalty other than a Class C misdemeanor ($250) in Texas for carrying past a commercial business 30.06 sign, I am planning to carry into business anyway because the penalty is only a fine. 

HOWEVER, it is also my view in general that most cops not only CAN be, but WILL be, pr**** when given the leeway to do so, so my questions are these:   

Scenario 1: I enter a business (not one of the special "escalation" premises like a hospital, but for example a local 30.06 posted grocery store) and am observed by an employee concealed carrying a handgun, if the employee says "leave" and I don't, I can be criminally trespassed for remaining.   Correct? 

Scenario 2:  The employee says, "You know, I don't like all you creeps with concealed firearms.  Wait right there.  Don't you leave.  I am calling the cops."  Do I have an obligation to identify myself to a grocery employee, and then stay at their command until the cops get there?  If I don't, have I further complicated the 30.06 Class C sign violation with another crime of resisting what it, in effect, a citizen's arrest?   

Scenario 3:  If the employee can identify me anyway because of my shopping there, can they post-facto call the cops to report a crime and they themselves provide identifying information to a cop that I was in there earlier and violated 30.06, but left when they called me out on it.  In that case, can the cops just swing by my house and write me the 30.06 citation because of the probable cause and a witness that I conceal-carried past 30.06? 

Scenario 4:   If a cop observes the bulge of a weapon under my shirt and ASSUMES it might be a gun but doesn't KNOW it is a gun (i.e., he has suspicion that I might be carrying in violation of the 30.06 sign on the premises OF A PRIVATE BUSINESS), can he stop me at that business in the absence of any other probable cause (on private property) and demand / command "raise your shirt and let me see" or would this be considered an illegal search and seizure?  If he says "raise your shirt,"  wouldn't I already have to be under arrest (Probable Cause) and not simply under an "investigative detention" if he is telling me to expose my underlings to him by raising my shirt?  Its OK to say there is no settled case law and you don't know, if that's the case. 

Scenario 5:  A cop has reasonable suspicion to believe that 30.06 has been violated and actually confirms it through closer observation or through scenario 4 above.   When the Class C violation occurs, is this a "sign and drive" citation, or do cops make an arrest, take you down to the justice center, throw you in a holding cell, and generally make your day a miserable waste before issuing you the Class C citation?   Even though the penalty is clear ($250) and you are guilty and will face a judge and will have to pay, There is no jail time.  However, "temporary detention" at the justice center and "purposeful inconvenience" is not "an arrest and charge."  So...  IS there a pattern of behavior where cops who don't like armed sheeple act like pr**** and arrest you and haul you to jail just to make things extremely inconvenient on top of the $250 fine, when you are simply carrying to just protect yourself and your family, and not to be an ugly, militant, nasty pr*** to anyone in the absence of other molestations by business owners or cops.   

I don't want my kids to go to CPS, even for a half day or a day because I got hauled in to jail by Colonel Flag when I am just concealed carrying to protect them and me, not to make a scene or a statement.  I also don't want to be threatened with this circumstance when the penalty for carrying past a 30.06 sign is clearly stated to be a fine only, but I don't trust cops.
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Texas Law is a little complicated with regard to carrying openly, concealed, and in your automobile (Texas Motorist Protection Act, 2009, which allows for concealed carry in a car without any kind of a license so long as the weapon in "not in plain view,") creating, in my opinion, some conflicts that I cannot answer.  I apologize for the length of this question to cover some subtleties about which I am very confused.   

In Texas -- and I make these distinctions because they are relevant to my question –
   1) When carrying openly,  on your person, the handgun must be carried in a belt or shoulder holster.   
   2) When carrying in your car without an LTC, the weapon cannot be in “plain view.” 
   3) The law is silent about whether, when carrying a weapon in your car when you do have an LTC the weapon can or cannot be “in plain view” (It is assumed that I am not acting criminally by flashing, menacing, brandishing, showing or otherwise handling the weapon out in the open.)

Here are my confusions.  Under the following circumstances:
1) I am a resident of Texas
2) I have a valid LTC
3) I am in my car going about my daily business
4) I want the weapon in a ready access.  I don't want to have to crawl to my glove box or futz with trying to get into my console if under attack or duress (e.g., car-jacker walks up to my window with a gun and points it through the glass and says "unlock the door and get out" or "give me your wallet right now.")  In either case, I have no opportunity to go swimming around the car for a weapon, and I don't want it sliding around on the floor or the seat next to me anyway.  Therefore, I want to mount it on my console BESIDE and BEHIND my leg and knee (from the driver’s door) while I am driving.  In general, which doctrines apply:  Motorist protection, Open Carry, Concealed Carry, and/or aggravated assault, etc., and more specifically: 

Q1)  Can I legally use a belt retention holster for the gun but mount it to the car's console, between my right knee and the wall of the console without the "plain view" doctrine coming into play?   Please note the following subtleties before answering:  (a) The gun is not, in my opinion, in plain view" while I am driving.  b) In order to see it, someone would have to be standing on the hood of my SUV and looking through the front windshield toward the floor to see the gun between my leg and the console of my SUV, and in that case they would see nothing but the butt of the pistol and they'd have to be standing on the hood to see it.  My leg completely covers the presence of a gun when looking through the driver's window when I am in the seat, and the console completely covers the presence of the gun at all times when looking in the passenger-side window.  To me, that does not seem to be "in plain view."  Is it?  (c) "In plain view" does not seem to me to be sufficiently defined to cover this case, and the “plain view” doctrine may not even apply because I have an LTC.  Does it?

Q2) If “plain view” applies, would the weapon be considered “in plain view” when on the wall of the console if you cannot see it while I am sitting in my driver’s seat unless you crawl on the hood of the car and look down toward the floorboard? (I admit readily that, on the other hand, if I were to get out of the car without removing the weapon from the car mounted holster and moving it to my empty belt holster or to my console, anyone could easily see it from outside the car through the open door or through the driver's window; this is obvious and is not my question.)

Q3) If “open carry” laws apply rather than “plain view” laws, then is the terminology "on or about," with regard to where the gun is "carried," sufficient to cover putting the weapon on the wall of the console beside my knee when carrying in my car if the weapon IS in a belt holster, but the belt holster is NOT ON MY BELT, but ON THE CONSOLE WALL.  The weapon is still "about" my person, but not "on" my person. (i.e., "open carrying" would apply possibly, but the belt holster itself is not on my belt even though it is "about my person."). 

Q4) Instead, would the weapon be considered "concealed" instead, as long as I am sitting in the car in such a way that the weapon cannot be seen without jumping up onto the top of the hood to look behind my leg? (i.e., In which case there are no holster restrictions at all, and "open carrying" laws would not apply either, making the "belt holster” provision null and the requirement to carry it ON MY BELT or ON MY SHOULDER null.

Q5: If the holster is empty and contains no gun, but is obviously there for that purpose, if I am stopped in a traffic violation, can I rightfully be charged with a crime for an empty car-mounted holster, and if so, what crime? It is sort of like "drug paraphernalia" in the absence of a the powder or a roach.  It is obvious why the holster is there, but it has nothing in it.   An officer would have to storm my car and get there before I had a chance to move the weapon to my console before I exited the car. 

If you can't tell, I don't trust cops any more to do the right thing because I think they are looking for ways to make the public an enemy, including LTC holders.   So sorry for how long this was, but I don’t want to get a jury of my peers to answer this question for me, but I do want ready access to my weapon and I don’t want to be sitting on it when I am driving…. That’s just way too uncomfortable.  I also don’t want TLS to say… “Oh, sorry… we won’t defend you because you were charged with a crime and you were carrying your weapon illegally.”

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Ask the Lawyers / Negligent Discharge: Legal obligations
« Last post by Halftime Oracle on September 26, 2017, 10:59:28 AM »
I'm not planning on being this stupid, but putting the magazine into a semi-automatic firearm and closing the slide loads the first round without the need to rack the slide (DA/SA pistol).   This is new to me, as I grew up on shotguns, and closing the chamber does not load the first shell from the magazine unless you have specifically racked the gun, so a semi-auto handgun is definitely different in that respect.   Moreover, loading an automatic firearm with the safety off leaves it in a cocked and ready position with a round loaded if the safety is off -- Note: I have a DA/SA Pistol -- so it will fire with very little trigger pressure in the "SA" mode at that point.   This got me to worrying about a couple of legal implications. 

In the event of a negligent discharge(ND)  (1) inside my own home, or (2) in my own car -- effectively an ND in which no one was injured as a result of that ND -- I have these questions:
 
(A) what obligations do I have to inform the police, and/or Texas Law Shield about the ND if there were no witnesses except family. 
(B) Does this obligation change if I have caused minor property damage to my own home or car (in my garage or driveway) with an ND, but no one in my family was injured.
(C) Does this obligation change if my car was damaged and the ND occurred when my car was not on my property, for example, I am removing my firearm from a lockbox in my car after going to a sporting event and reloading it before driving back home, and during that reload process I accidentally discharge a round into the floorboard (i.e., In this case there are possible witnesses outside my immediate family to the ND, and who were involved in the sense that they likely heard, and may have even seen, the ND into the floorboard, but who were not injured as a result)
(D) Since TLS is set up to defend what it's members believe to be "righteous" uses of a firearm, what coverage does TLS provide in the event of an ND, especially in the case of C above where I will likely be charged with a CRIMINAL offense for an ND because it occurred around others and in public, even though the discharge was completely accidental (e.g., Cops may charge disorderly conduct, deadly conduct, aggravated assault, or any number of other charges papered over an ND to get their pound of flesh for the negligence, even though cops have ND's all the time).

Thanks so much for considering and answering.

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Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying past a 30.06 in TX & TX Law Shield's Coverage
« Last post by TexasLawShield on September 25, 2017, 03:56:41 PM »
Chasetag87,

We are more than happy to provide coverage for members who find themselves in situations where they are forced to use their firearms in defense of themselves or others, even if it is in a location with a 30.06 sign.  The member must have justification available as a defense.  I spoke to both the founder and President of the company a few minutes ago and they both confirmed this point.

While our Independent Program Attorneys would defend you for charges relating to the use of the gun, there are many other possible charges that could result from being on the property with a firearm – criminal trespassing and unlawful carry, to name a couple – not to mention the fact that you risk losing state law presumptions and no duty to retreat protection. 
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Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying a firearm to an argument
« Last post by SirBobsalot on September 25, 2017, 02:07:11 PM »
So, I have a question.

I carry all the time when I am not in my own house.  I disarm only when required to do so.

I have a hypothetical situation.  If my neighbors dog has been pooping in my yard and I walk next door to ask him nicely to keep his dog out of my yard.  I am expecting them to say something like "Ok, sorry, I didn't realize.  I will take care of it."  At which point everything would be fine. 

If my neighbor instead wanted to argue about it, would I have then brought a gun to an argument even then I wasn't trying to argue or fight in any way? 

This scenario troubles me because It seems that I have to give up my private property rights or my gun rights.  I can't approach my neighbor about there troublesome dog because if they get mad then I have brought my gun to an argument.  But if they were to get mad, that is the time when I would want to have my gun with me. 

I hope this makes sense,
SirBobsalot
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Ask the Lawyers / Re: Carrying a firearm to an argument
« Last post by TexasLawShield on September 22, 2017, 04:31:03 PM »
switch,

You are correct that a use of force is not justified under Texas Penal Code 9.31 (b)(5), if you carry a firearm to a confrontation in violation of Section 46.02. This section addresses unlawful carry of a firearm. This does not mean that lawfully carrying your firearm will render you presumed guilty of an offense. If you have a Texas LTC and are lawfully carrying your firearm on your person, then you are not carrying your firearm in violation of Section 46.02. Therefore, you will not be presumed guilty or prevented from arguing justified use of force.
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Ask the Lawyers / Re: Texas HB 435, does it apply to me?
« Last post by TexasLawShield on September 22, 2017, 04:29:21 PM »
mdubtx,

You may qualify as “volunteer emergency services personnel” even without your certifications.

TPC § 46.01(18) defines volunteer emergency service personnel as “a volunteer firefighter, an emergency medical services volunteer as defined by Section 773.003, Health and Safety Code, and any individual who, as a volunteer, provides services for the benefit of the general public during emergency situations.” This text requires only that you be a volunteer and that you provide services for the benefit of the general public during an emergency situation. Unfortunately, since this is a new law, we have no guidance on how courts will apply this text; however, this definition likely will apply to the service you described.

If it applies to you, this law eliminates criminal responsibility for carrying a handgun most places that weapons are prohibited. It creates a defense to prosecution if—while performing emergency services—you carry beyond a 30.06 or 30.07 sign or into a location listed in TPC § 46.035(b) or (c). The locations listed in § 46.035 include 51% establishments; sporting events; hospitals, places of religious worship, and amusement parks posted with 30.06/30.07; civil commitment facilities; or properly posted government meetings. But, you still may not carry into correctional facilities.

HB 435 also creates TPC § 46.15(a)(10), exempting you from prosecution under §§ 46.02 and 46.03 IF (1) you were carrying a handgun with a valid LTC and (2) you were engaged in providing emergency services. This means you cannot be prosecuted for unlawfully carrying weapons or carrying a handgun in a place weapons are prohibited (e.g., airports, polling places, schools, etc.) resulting from your provision of emergency services.
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Ask the Lawyers / Carrying past a 30.06 in TX & TX Law Shield's Coverage
« Last post by Chasetag87 on September 22, 2017, 02:54:39 PM »
Hello,
I have a quick question regarding TX law and our policy coverage.

So recently, the law changed regarding carrying past a 30.06 from a Class A misdemeanor to a Class C and a fine not to exceed $200 "except where license holder is prohibited from carrying the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035."

It is detailed quite thoroughly in your blog post: https://blog.uslawshield.com/carrying-past-a-30-0630-07-sign-beware/

I understand that our TX Law Shield coverage would not cover us for the Class C misdemeanor case itself. But for those that are potentially accepting that penalty and carrying past a 30.06 and have to use force or deadly force in an encounter, will TX Law Shield still be there to protect us in full?

Best regards,
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